Okay, here's the topic for the rest of this week, and I'm paraphrasing the question that I showed you in the handout on literary criticism of Oedipus because I left my copy at school (must have been fate). Now that you all obviously have a firm grip on hubris and ate', to what extent do you think our lives are governed by our heredity, our environment, chemical makeup, family heritage, fate, etc. As I said, this is a paraphrase. Use the questions that I directed you to in the handout.
Oh, by the way, I'm not sure I agree that Catherine is an example of hubris. I actually think Heathcliff might be a better example because hubris represents a person's belief that he can act independently of "the gods" and mold the world to conform to his own desires - the ultimate form of overweening pride. It goes beyond narcissism to almost seeing the self as being so powerful that one no longer has to submit to laws of nature (the gods).
Can't wait to hear what you have to say about free will, heredity, etc. This ought to be good.........
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The role of family in our fate differs from person to person. This differs largely on the strength of the person to overcome whatever circumstances are placed on him/her. I believe the essence of this is simple in concept: do you choose to live as a reaction or to move forward despite whatever circumstances have been dealt to you? It is much easier to say to not live as a reactionary than to truly not live as one.
For my personal life, I do not know if I would go so far as to say that my parents dictate my fate. I believe that, in reaction, they have dictated many characteristics of mine. However, I believe fate is quite a strong word. I am not a Calvinist nor do I believe in predestination. I believe my fate cannot be dictated today. The decisions of tomorrow will influence my fate, and the day after and so on and so forth, however I don't believe one can really see his/her fate. If one feels that he can see his/her fate then he/she is likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I do not believe that genetics plays a large role in fate. I suppose in the physical sense, if your family has a medical history of some disease it is likely that you too might get it, but I don't believe that characteristics are inherited. I know this clashes with many of the "scientific" findings of this day and age, but it really does not convince me otherwise.
Why do we see science as the answer? How is it logical that logic would make sense in an illogical world? The world is simply full of paradoxes, so many that one could question the veracity of science.
G.K. Chesterton, the notable intellectual and author of "Orthodoxy", wrote these words which ring true to me: "I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid". The genetics argument, in my opinion, is a weak one, as is any argument that does not take into consideration the human soul; the very essence of human nature.
To quote G.K. Chesterton one last time from his book "Heretics": "When we step into the family, by the act of being born, we do step into a world which is incalculable, into a world which has its own strange laws, into a world which could do without us, into a world we have not made. In other words, when we step into the family we step into a fairy-tale." So it is, in my opinion, a fairy-tale. We live in a world where mysticism and spirit plays as much a role as the so-called laws of science. What constitutes free will and fate, then, cannot be accounted for in scientific terms.
The majority of people are a reaction to their parents in some form. This reaction can be either positive or negative. Indeed, we make the inference that a "reaction" is bad. Often, sadly, this is the case. For example, suppose a boy has divorced parents. The divorce was remorseless, damaging, and perhaps even traumatizing. Perhaps his father was a womanizer and a drunkard. He can react a number of ways. As an adult, he might become a womanizer and a drunkard himself, seeking gratification to escape the pain that was brought upon him in his childhood. Or, however, he might become an exceptionally caring husband. Because he has witnessed the danger of substances and irresponsibility, this might encourage him to become a responsible and caring male.
Pink Floyd's "The Wall", which in my opinion is one of the artistic masterpieces of the 20th century, greatly illustrates the role of living as a reaction to one's own upbringing. Pink, the protagonist of the story, is a young child at the end of World War Two. While many childrens' fathers return home from the war, Pink's does not. His dad has died, and he is left with an over-protective mother who keeps Pink in a boarding school and away from human relationships.
Pink's mother is overprotective of her son. As the lyrics to Roger Water's masterpiece "Mother" state: "Momma's gonna make all your nightmares come true, momma's gonna put all of her fears into you. Momma's gonna keep you here under her wing, she won't let you fly but she might let you sing."
Pink grows up in a state of serious depression. Having been deprived of friendship, love, and other relationships that his mother feared would leave him broken-hearted, he takes to relationships with shallow women and substance abuse.
Pink builds "The Wall", a metaphor to escapism; he takes to women and drugs to escape the despair of his past. Eventually, Pink is put on trial and forced to "tear down the wall".
To a person who has never heard this album or seen the movie adaptation, this must all sound like total bullocks, nonsense, and just plain strange in nature. However, the point is this: so many of us have this "wall" in our lives. I will be the first to admit that I have it (and no, it is not drugs, just if you were curious. Mine is music, a much safer form). Your opinions and characteristics are formed by those around you. The question is not whether you react. It is impossible to not react. The question is this, do you react in a positive or negative manner?
Fate is not shaped in advance, in my opinion. Parents, friends, life events, traumatic experiences, etc. influence the character and opinions of a person. These instances influence the attitude of a person. But as long as a person is alive one's own fate is not yet determined. As Stephen Hawking said, even those who believe in predestination "look both ways before crossing the street".
Wow, Alex. That was an epistle. So do you believe that man is an "actor" or a "reactor?"
I believe man is a reactor. However, this is not necessarily a negative thing, as we usually think of a "reaction" as being.
I just realized an error in my first response. In the first paragraph, I meant to say NEGATIVE reactionary, not merely a reactionary. My mistake.
I think our fate is sort of determined by all the examples in the question. Some do play a bigger role, but don’t control our entire life. I personally think that everyone can enjoy free will to the highest extent. There is no limit on free will. I agree with John Wesley’s concept of free will. He didn’t believe in total predestination. Wesley thought we had a chose in every decision we make throughout our lives. We may be influenced by outside factors, but the ultimate decision is up to us. We are the children of fate based on the choices that others make (be those good or bad) and how they impact our lives. Our everyday lives are consumed with little situations that we have to accomplish. These might be simple or extremely complicated. Each decision we make will affect some person in some way. So, in a way, we are children of fate. What people did before us is still affecting us today. I don’t totally believe in fate, but I believe fate can play a factor in everyday life.
To answer Mrs. Moore's paraphrased question, I believe that our heredity and our family play a very important role in governing our lives. If you go to the obvious response, these two parts are the determing factors in our popularity a majority of the time. For example, the Jewish heritage during World War II cost millions of Jews their lives in Europe. They died based only on what they believed. Today, I think we all look down on people who believe in Islam, and I think we do that mostly because of September 11. It's not like there is going to be a mass genocide of all of the Muslims, but nonetheless, their heritage makes many people a little queasy.
Although I said that heritage does play a role in the world today, I don't think it is near as bad as it used to be many years ago. Now, I believe that family is more of a factor. If you take a look at Paris Hilton, you can see her fame comes almost only from being an heiress. Her family owns a chain of well known hotels, so she has lived as a rich celebrity her whole life. I could be wrong, but I don't think the children of the owners of Motel 8 are living with that kind of fame.
Even here in Willard you can see how a person's family can be a depending factor in how popular a person is at school. I don't mean to be offensive, but a student who has a father for a doctor is bound to be more popular than a student whose father works at McDonald's. Almost always, people in our kind of society can make a name for themselves, but when you are a young person such as ourselves, I believe our family governs how our life begins.
Stephanie makes some very good points, in my opinion. However, I believe that family continues to influence one's personality, characteristics, and potentially fate after one even leaves the home. As a child, these factors affect one directly. As an adult, they affect one indirectly. Again, I do not believe this "reaction" is necessarily negative.
I would agree with Kelley that, in theory, there is no limit on free will. If one can remove the limitations placed on oneself and react to his circumstances in a positive manner, then free will will not be limited. Aleister Crowley's words, "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law" would ring true. In all actuality and reality, however, this is not true. While this is largely a sad state of affairs, if everyone had total free will, we would see the horror that only man in the state of anarchy can bring.
However, to quote Machiavelli again: "God is not willing to do everything, and thus take away our free will and that share of glory which belongs to us." However, concerning complete free will, I would like to quote Machiavelli again: "It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges law for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope."
I have been thinking about this hubris. It can almost apply to any villian. A villian always has this sense of pride that he is better than anyone alse and that is why he/she wants to "take over the world". But can it only apply to evil people? Take at lok at Achilles. He decided he was't going to fight because his prize had been taken away from him. This ate causes his best friend to die. So far we have been looking at only villians but I believe we should take a look at ourselves. I'm not gonna lie, I believe there have been times when I have had an excessive sense of pride and thought I was better than anyone else. We all have a small amount of hubris in us. We just have to have the wisdom to not commit the ate like Achilles did, because it could cost us something or someone very dear. We may never know what we could lose and do we really want to? I accidently put this in the old post.
Our fate is what we make it. We have the free will to do anything we want. Yes, we have our family and our morals that tell us what is right and wrong, but ultimately it is our choice. If we were truly predestined to a fate that we could not escape then what need would there be for planning for the future. It we truly believe that we cannot change the future then why do we worry about grades, parents, colleges. The truth is that we know that out fate is an our own hands. No matter what your name is or where you came from, you control your own fate. It is by free will that we are able to succeed. It's up to you. Nothing's going to stop us now, because we are young and we have our whole lives ahead of us. If we stop to think about our future we will realize that it's in our hands. If I believed that my future was our of my comtrol then why would I be applying myself as uch as I am. Couldn't I just leave it to chance that everything would work out? The answer is NO. I control what happens in my future. I ultimately decide my fate. Now, I truly do believe that God knows what is going to happen to me, but he has given me the free will to lead my life the way I choose.
Here’s a thought, perhaps our “free-will” is the reason fate even exists. If we didn’t have free will, one’s fate wouldn’t be their own. Oedipus made his decisions himself, using his free will. He made his fate a reality through his free will.
At first I was completely opposed to the idea that one couldn’t control his or her own destiny. I felt that there was no such thing as predetermined fate. I think part of it probably came from my extreme stubbornness, and I couldn’t imagine my decisions only leading to a previously set ending. However, now I am not so sure. I think perhaps each of us has a destiny to fulfill that may already be laid out in front of us before we are born, as ludicrous as the idea may sound. Fortunately, most of us are blessed with remaining ignorant about this fate (Thank God we don’t have many esteemed soothsayers feeling the need to inform us).
If we all do have a predetermined fate, maybe it’s not about changing this fate (as many of us would try to do, including myself), but rather about the decisions we make regarding our fate. We have it much easier than Oedipus, for we don’t know what our fate is. Just because we don’t know, however, doesn’t mean it does not exist. I think maybe we are looking at fate in the wrong way. Shannon, you were so right when you stated, “It we truly believe that we cannot change the future, then why do we worry about grades, parents, colleges”, but what if our fate IS to change the future? It’s a very debatable topic considering that no one knows the answer. Maybe God decided that the world is a much better place without humans knowing their predetermined fate. It gives them more motivation. Does this mean that it doesn’t exist though?
Maybe fate exists, maybe it doesn’t, or maybe it truly is in our own hands. Whatever the matter is, we must simply live. We must live our lives the way we choose to live them. Does it really matter if someone or something else already knows our ending? As long as it remains a mystery to me, I’ll be happy.
In the movie “Ever After,” the prince questions the idea of fate, asking, “Is everything just chance, or are some things meant to be?” Leonardo da Vinci replies stating, “You cannot leave everything to fate boy. She’s got a lot to do. Sometimes you must give her a hand”.
I think Alison makes an excellent point. Did not Oedipus try to avoid the fate that had been told to him. He new what his fate was and tried to avoid it by doing everything he could to get away from it. He leaves his "home" because he thinks that he'll kill his father and marry his mother, but it is the action (made with the purpose of avoiding that fate) which actually puts into action the series of events that brings about that fate.
I also believe that it is our own ignorance about our full situation that leads us to make these mistakes and fulfill our fate. Had Oedipus known that he was not living with his real mother and father, he would not have left his home and ended up killing his birth father and marrying Iocasta.
Fate, perhaps, is not what is going to happen to us without our say but rather what will happen to us because of the choices we will make through free will. Just because we don't know what choices we will make in our life, that doesn't mean that God doesn't. We could very well have a predestined fate, but I don't think that means we are powerless to make our own decisions. God is outside of time and space, so he can know the whole story of our lives (and everything) right now. Just because he knows this, it doesn't mean that we don't still make our decisions for ourselves. He just knows what we're going to do today, tomorrow, and the next day, just as he knows what we've done in the past.
Will brings up a good point. Everyone suffers from pride. Actually, I should rephrase that. Everyone has pride. One must make sure that one does not suffer from pride. Like "reaction", we tend to look at "pride" in a negative light. Pride can be seen in a negative light easily. So many people that are full of pride are also full of arrogance. If anyone has ever read Dante's "Divine Comedy", then you know what I mean of this negative concept of pride. Dante's visit of the prideful in Purgatory is most notable.
However, I was practicing with my band today. I have to have some pride in what I do. If I do not have pride in what I do, then I will be careless and sloppy. If I do not have pride, then the quality of my music will not be good (granted that it is debatable if my music is ever good quality).
Will brought up an interesting question. "We may never know what we could lose and do we really want to?"
I wonder sometimes if man subconsciously knows all that he is capable of losing. Does man live as a reaction, taking escapist routes trying to escape this sorrow and despair?
Yesterday I attended the funeral of my great grandmother. She was granted and blessed with almost 100 years on this earth. I ask myself why do I cry? Why do I cry for a woman who lived almost a century? When I saw her a few months before she died she complained that she didn't want to live to be 100. When I saw her a week before she died she clung to a photograph of her mother saying that she wanted to see her again.
If anything, I should be happy for her, it seems. She accomplished her goal and is reunited with her mother. There are a few reasons I carry this sorrow still...
I have great memories of my great grandmother. I can say that her and my great grandfather, who also neared a century of age when he died, were two of the best people I have ever known. When it comes to intelligence and kind-heartedness, they are more than I could ever hope to be.
When I arrive at the funeral, it is hard to not notice the stone of my great grandfather. The stone of my uncle. The stones of those I've known. The knowledge that though my stone may not be here, so one day my stone will be somewhere too.
Can man bear the reminding of his own mortality? Sure, there is more in another life. But does this cancel out the pain of mortality? At a certain spiritual point in one's life, perhaps so. However, as a young man, like millions of young people out there, the fear of mortality is fresh. Life has yet to offer enough years to not make this process seem foreign.
In this life we can lose literally everything. You can be left with nothing but yourself. Even in the end, this will be taken away.
This is the only fate I believe is predetermined. Death. Voltaire once said that: "If God were not real, it would be necessary to create one." I don't really believe this. One, I believe in God. If I did not, I still wouldn't agree. You don't necessarily need a "god", you just need a higher authority, and not even necessarily a religious one. However, I think that this line of logic applies to predestination.
Even if predestination were real, it would be necessary as human beings to convince ourselves that it is not real. If predestination were real and man were aware of this, then he would be hopeless. He would be lazy and accept his fate of despair. The concept of free will allows hope.
I agree with Shannon. God does knows what is going to happen but gives us that free will to choose a path for us. However a person must take that step to coohse that path. One reason I think that people believe you can't change fate is because they don't take that step to choose a path. If they live in a bad life they just believe that their fate is horrible and they just learn to accept it. They don't want to take a step towards a better path. So we do have a free will and can change our fate but we have to be willing to take the risks and the steps.
I think that your life is predominately determined by your heredity, and environment. You don't choose if you're born into a Rockefeller family, or below poverty level family. That being said, I think ever person has some form of free will, just some more than others. That being said, I am an ardent believer in fate. But, I also believe that, to an extent, people can enjoy free will.
I like Alison's quote from the movie "Ever After". Although I said that I do believe that fate is an unavoidable factor in my life, but I'm not saying that there aren't times that I think "fate-schmate". Not EVERYTHING is left to fate, not always. Is our fate constantly changing by our free will and the decisions we make? I don't think so, but that's just me.
After reading everyone's comments, I have found that I think everyone is defining fate in a different way. For me personally, I don't think I really believe in fate as it is commonly defined today. I don't think that we have a destiny that will happen no matter what we do. But I do believe that God in heaven is looking down and knows all the events of our entire life. I suppose in that way, I do believe in fate. I believe God wants the best for us, but our free will often gets in the way. WE mess up our lives; it is not some random force out there called fate. It is our own sinful natures that draw us away from God and from what is best for us.
So, I do believe in fate in that I believe God has planned out all my days. But I don't believe that I have no choice in life and that everything is out of my control. I make my decisions, not fate.
Allison's last comment brings up a good point...it also leads us into the direction of the infamous excellence discussion. Just kidding, Allison. No really though, this reminds me of the "what is excellence?" debate. Now, what is fate?
Predestination is one complicated issue. One of the things we need to do as humans is be open-minded. When one clings too close to an ideology, it's hard to be open-minded. However, I think a lot of people here are open-minded. My own personal open-mindedness, however, requires me to make a certain disclaimer:
Predestination is one very complicated issue. I am only 17 years old. I don't know the answers to everything. I don't know the answer to many things. Predestination is not something that I have concluded an answer upon in my 17 years on this earth. Right now, I see predestination as a very weak or nonexistent factor, but I'm not bought onto this idea entirely. I could very well be wrong.
I am perplexed as to how God could have planned out all our days yet we could still have free will. This seems almost like a paradox to me. Upon reading one of my favorite authors last night, Francis Schaeffer, I found that he had this to say about predestination:
"...God has made man in His own image, and this means, among other things, that man too can act into the cause-and-effect flow of history. That is, man cannot be reduced to only a part of the machine; he is not an automation."
I think Alex is right about predestination. It is something that is really confusing and no one theology has the right answer. I believe God already knows what is going to happen to all of us. Most of the people who have written comments can agree with this idea. God knows everything, but gave us the chance to make our own decisions to get to the end. It sort of reminds me of Robert Frost’s poem, “The Road Not Taken.” We have two choices laid out in front of us; we must decide which one to take to lead us to our destiny. God gave us the chance to live in perfection, but you must also remember that God made the Tree of Life and Death. Yes Eve was tempted to eating the fruit from this tree, but God gave her the free will to eat from it. He warned Adam and Eve of the consequences, but they still disobeyed because God gave them the chance to live. That’s why everyone has sin when they are born. We are born into an imperfect world, and it is our choices to reach the end that God wants us to have.
When I thought about to what extent we are the "Children of Chance," I figured that for the most part, we are. But,if we work hard in life, or if we are lazy, we determine whether we will succeed. I don't believe any other force can determine that. If we die from drug abuse, that is our fault because we chose to try drugs in the first place. If we spend plenty of time studying, and we get a good grade, then WE earned it. However, I would say about ninety percent of the time, our fate, or death as I am interpreting it to mean for this response, it completely chance. For example, the man who lives in California had his wife, two children, and mother-in-law killed when a plane crash landed into his home. It is not like the pilot did it on purpose, and the people did not deserve to die, especially the children, who were too young to have known what it meant to do wrong. They were still innocent. Another example would be the children and babies who are born with cancer, or tumors, or other diseases. That happens all by chance. I don't understand what random selection is done to determine which people live and which die, but I do know that we are all victims of chance and "fate." We can determine our success or failure in most cases, but we almost never determine our final fate.
I would say the opposite is true of your final response. Again though, this is just my opinion. We cannot determine our successes or failures, however, we can determine our final fate.
That final fate is death, at least in this life. We are all aware of it. Subconsciously, we might try to escape this burden. Consciously, we might try to escape this burden, but the knowledge is there. This escapism, ironically, is probably more a cause of death than anything else.
Man cannot accept mortality. He might not believe in a life after this one. Even if he does, perhaps this is not good enough for him. Man's extreme narcissism and his escapist attitude towards mortality are a deadly combination. When man cannot come to terms with his own mortality and seeks to establish something that will live on in memory for all of time. Often this leads to empire; an attempt by mortal man to make him immortal throughout generations. For generations, ironically, man pays the cost of his empire. Man battles over who truly owns the region, and as in the case of our brothers in the Middle East, this war wages for thousands of years.
This fate we are certain: we all die. However, do you really know what your successes and failures will be? My experience has taught me to think the opposite of what my brain tells me when it comes to success and failure. If you think something will bring you bad, it will often work in your favor and bring you good. If you believe something is to bring you good, watch out. You'll likely be brought something bad.
Nine years ago my parents divorced. Since then, I've probably had more therapy than Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer collectively. This would seem failure. However, I've recorded numerous CDs and have been able to play a few parties. The reason that I am comfortable enough with my guitar skills to do this is no coincidence; when my relationship was shaky with my parents and people in general following therapy I took to my room, a large album collection, and my guitar. I heard the voices of singers more than I talked to real people. I owe my guitar skills to these circumstances that would seem to only bring failure.
When I was brought to Willard it was merely another aspect of the divorce. Willard would keep me away from my father, after all. Again, this seemed like nothing except failure. However, I met my best friend who has been like a brother to me for the past four years.
The point is, I don't know if one can ever have any idea of what one's successes or failures will be. Whether fate is predestined or not, it works in the most funny of ways. It often brings the opposite of what you expect, or at least I feel so.
Fate can most definitely be looked upon in both negative and positive ways. One can look at all the bad things in the world and view that as fate at its worse. They may also view that as evidence that fate doesn’t exist at all. Bad things happen. Good things happen. This is reality. Fate is reality.
Who’s not to say that it wasn’t my younger sister’s fate to pass away at just three days of age? It may be horrible, but it is reality. Everything happens for a reason, right? Bad things happen so that good things can thrive. So people come together and love. I just finished reading “The Host” by Stephenie Meyer. In it, a bunch of souls (basically aliens) invade the planet earth and take over human bodies (kind of like invasion of the body snatchers). But as you read, you understand the reason they came (don’t worry, I won’t give away anything good). They hear of all the horrible, violent things that take place on this planet, and they want to end the suffering. Once the souls take control earth truly is a communist planet, and it works! Everyone does their part, is helpful, kind, and never hurtful or deceiving. It truly seems like utopia. However, after living with several surviving humans, a particular soul realizes that her life wasn’t truly lived. Everything was predictable, everything kind and right. She realizes that the good is never truly enjoyed if the bad doesn’t exist. It’s like Mrs. Harwood’s Ying Yang. You need the bad to balance out the good and vice versa. Everyone suffers from the cruelty of the world. And yes, the world is brutally cruel. But what if it’s cruel for a reason? What if it’s cruel to teach its inhabitants about life? About love? One can most certainly argue that this planet would be better without all of the “bad”. However, I believe I disagree. For the bad teaches us to never take anything for granted. It teaches us to fight for what we want, and hold unto those we love. The bad allows those truly good moments to exist. For if everything was always good, good would be an ever present normality, and then what? As humans, we learn from the bad, we survive the bad, we remember the bad, but we turn to the good. The good gets us through our darkest hours. I urge everyone to remember the good always because it most certainly is here, and I have no doubt that it will remain here. Everyone has a fate. Maybe their fate is to help out all the rest of us here on earth. To teach us something about life. Is it fair? Who knows? But I believe after death one finally sees the big picture. That should be interesting.
I believe in fate for the fact that everything happens for a reason. Whether it be bad or good. Recently I was in a car accident. It was not a bad one but the reason had to be is it opened my eyes. People had told me before that I am a bad driver. I always just said to them that I am a good agressive driver. I now believe that does not exist. Anyways I now take more care when I drive. If it had not been for this accident I would have kept aggressively driving and could have gotten in a wreck that was worse than the one I was in. So I say that even if your free will gets you into trouble it is for a predestined reason
The bad teaches us to appreciate the good more. This is surely the case, and a very good one that Allison points out. Who appreciates a sandwich more, the man who lives in a mansion and has his own personal chef or a homeless man?
Ignorance is bliss. Utopia is life minus the free will. This is the price of the "good" life. Are you willing to give up your intellect to live the "perfect" life or the "perfect" fate?
The world is a cruel place. If you bury yourself in instant gratification such as celebrity news, alcohol, social functions, etc. then perhaps you can remind blind to this cruelty. However, you do this at the expense of ignorance. You do this at the expense of never fulfilling your mental capacity. You do this at the expense of turning blindly to the cruelness of the world and putting forth no effort to change it.
Often times in life good is not a "good and bad" scenario, it's more of a presidential election scenario. It's not really that the incident was all that great, it just wasn't as bad as that OTHER one. In this sense, bad times not only make us appreciate good times, they make us appreciate bad times, because at least they're not HORRIBLE times.
However, I'm still having some trouble seeing the predestination view. What has always really bothered me on an evangelical level is this: If fate is predestined than how can we "save" souls? What's the sense of putting forth effort to save someone? If God wants him saved, won't he do so? If God wants me to save a person, then won't I be not only physically compelled to do so? I'd be like when Plankton gets inside Spongebob's head to try to get the secret Krabby Patty formula from the Krusty Krab. I could try to detest and do otherwise but it would do no good (I'm sorry, I know it's a children's show. I know I've gone from referencing Chesterton, Machiavelli, and the such to Spongebob, but it was just the best example I could think of).
But then again, of course, I am trying to apply logic. Predestination could simply be one of the other countless parodoxes of human existence.
I liked Will's comment about everything happening for a reason. I think that all things in life do work together, and, in the end, we will be able to see how everything came together to make up our lives. An innumerable number of people have had similar experiences to Will's, whether it be a car accident, a sickness, a death in the family, or some other event that opens one's eyes. Even the worst things that happen in life sometimes lead to changes or other things that NEED to be made in someone's life. Next time we're just blaming something on fate, maybe we should stop and consider the possibility that it is going to lead to something else more important. Even the bad things in life can end in something good.
I don't think everything happens for a reason. I honestly believe that a lot of things in life are just random coincidences. William, I'm glad to hear that you had an epiphany after your car accident, because you were an aggressive driver, and that you got something good out of your bad experience. I wish I could say the same thing when I got in my car accident sophmore year. I was a cautious driver, and even more cautious in nasty weather. I didn't need a lesson or a wake up call, but I obviously got a harsh one, one that I didn't deserve. I still drive the same way I did then, and maybe this is just be being bitter, but there was no reason for it! I just don't think everything happens for a reason, but that's just me.
Alison knows this better than anyone, that I always talk about karma. I think that karma and fate kind of coincide. I like karma because when something bad, or often, ironic happens, I like to blame it on bad karma. I think that fate is kind of like that, but I guess more serious. I would be devastated if I had a bad fate, but having bad karma isn't so difficult to bear(is it Alison?). This was kind of a random thought, but others discussions made me think of karma and how it compares to fate.
Beth, I think it's interesting that you don't think that your car accident had a reason for happening, but I think it did. Perhaps it did nothing for YOU in particular, but I know after it happened, I started driving safer because you, one of my friends and someone my age, had an accident. Who knows, maybe I was headed for an accident if I hadn't learned from yours. I think we all think that when something happens, it has to change or cause something in our lives to change, but what about the effect it has on others? I know that all of us (Beth's friends and classmates) were worried about her after the accident and I have a feeling I wasn't the only one who took it as a sort of reason. This is why I think everything happens for a reason.
I agree with a lot of what Alison said. Personally, I believe that God is yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He does know what is coming for us, what we will do, how we will act, and who with who we will place our trust. Does this mean that we don't control our own fate? No, it just means that we don't get to see the bigger picture. God has entrusted us with one tiny puzzle piece in a Garlough-numbered puzzle, yet we expect to understand exactly what the bigger picture is. We expect to have total control over exactly how our puzzle piece is going to look. What if everyone tried to control their piece without consulting those around us and God? Family and friends affect who we are. I'm a firm believer that we are made into the people we are - with our values and ethics - by watching our parents. Our heredity affect who we are also. Stephanie's example with the Jews is perfect example. (It is the epitome of examples.) (When is our next vocab test?) If we allowed no influence from those around us and God, none of our puzzle pieces would fit together. We would not form the whole picture. The whole picture which is seen only by - and thus in the control of - God.
The world is constantly changing. Saying that everything happens for a reason is simply an outlook on life. It's trying to look at life with the glass half full I believe. If you are willing to believe that something good will come of everything, you will search for and anticipate the good things to come. Wouldn't that open your eyes to the good things that happen around you? I don't know if "fate" has anything to do with whether all things happen for a reason or not, but why not push yourself to find the good in everything?
I think who we are and who we become are influenced by such things as heredity, environment, chemical makeup, and family heritage but I think we all have the ability to overcome all of these factors. No matter who we are or where we come from we all have the ability to change the course of our lives if we so choose. It may be easier to succeed if you are set in a caring and calming environment and if you have the support of strong friends and family. Environment and family can have a huge impact on an individual, but everyone has the ability to choose what kind of person they want to be. Some people look at their family and environment and want to work hard to rise above it, and others look at their environment and family and want to duplicate that sort of life for themselves. Whether positive or negative, environment and family can both be motivators.
I consider myself a religious person, and in that respect I usually agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church. While I realize that not all of us are Catholics, I do believe that we all at least acknowledge the existence of God. In my assessment of free will and fate I agree a lot with Shannon, that while God knows or determines our fate, we ultimately act with free will. It's like me being a Catholic. Yes, my parents baptized me into the Catholic Church and I had a religious upbringing, but I am still choosing to be a Catholic. My faith is something I rely heavily on in my most depressed moments. As far as heredity and family go, my parents have never really told me how or how not to live my life. I fell that you as an individual make up your own mind of how to live your life. Your parents can make you go to church or they can make you clean the house a certain way, and they can tell you what to do as a child, but in the end you will live your life the way that you feel is best. Your parents may even teach you how not to live, as my parents have so generously done for me. Recalling the way we lived when I was younger and just thinking back to when my home life was far less than perfect, makes me never want to get married. I think that in a lot of ways weather you choose to believe it a lot, your parents influence the way you live, and eventually in one way or another, they influence your free will. I think that while free will exists, it will always be tainted by your subconscious and by your family.
I went back and reread the question which asks the extent to which anyone can enjoy free will and the extent to which we are children of fate. I realize that's what we've been talking about, but it was a slightly more intriguing wording. We have been given free will, and America is the prime example of utilizing that free will. I admit I simply refuse to see some of the darker aspects of America where we have been denied free will, but from a "fate" standpoint I believe we have total free will anyway.
The phrase from the question "children of Chance" stood out. To me, children are controlled and by parents for a few years, and then simply are reminders of the combined beliefs of both parents. To say we are children of chance, is to say that at first in life we are all controlled by chance. We have no control over what family we are born into, what kind of parents we'll recieve, or what school we'll go to. As we grow older and rebel against our parents ("chance"), we begin to take matters into our own hands. Thus, this phrase seemed to suggest that early in life we are dependent upon chance and as we grow older we can take control of our own life.
I like Tina's analysis. We are all just a part of something that is much bigger than we could ever imagine. It is the coices we make with this free will we have that put our piece into the right spot. Like Tina says we just can't see the big picture that God is controlling. Wait nevermind controllin is not the right word more like watching over. He may know what is goning to happen but it is the choices that he gives us that makes us the people we are. Even if it is the bad choice, the consequences teach us that what we did was wrong and that we should choose a higher path next time.
But I also disagree with Tina. I believe fate and everything happening for a reason are the same. Not to go into the extreme but someone's death can even have a reason. Let's take a look at my grandmother's death. Even though it was a very sad moment for my family, over the past year and a half my family has become so much closer. So her "fate" has brought some good things about. So I do agree with the fact that it is good to strive for good in everything because I believe there is good in everything. In a screwed up world like this, believing something like that can get you through life.
Also I don't look for the good things they come to me.
I agree with Kyleigh in that heredity and all of those other factors can be overcome. Unlike Oedipus, we can escape fate. If someone grows up in a household where there is a poor, single parent who is constantly drunk or does drugs, it seems as though the child will turn out the same. However, half the time, these children learn to defeat the odds and can make something of themselves. Years ago, isn't that what drew people to our country? Horatio Alger wrote all of those "rags to riches" stories and proved that people can overcome their family life and become something more. I read a story that a man with down syndrome became an eagle scout, which is a very high boy scout honor. He overcame his chemical makeup to make a dream come true. Although we are still somewhat "Children of Chance," we can overcome some of the set backs in each one of our lives.
I personally live my life by the belief that "Everything happens for a reason." That is what I consider fate in its most simple form. I could not agree more with Amy when she says that the reason may not always be for our benefit, but for the benefit of others. Of course Beth you don't see that there was a reason for your car accident. Who would? But I went through the same feelings after my family's car accident 6 years ago. You can drive yourself crazy asking all of the WHY and WHAT IF questions. It took me a few years to really realize that even though it was a horrible time for our family, it brought us so much closer together. We realized how quickly Winton could have been taken from us and now we look at him and everything he does and we are thankful just to have him with us. I'm sure that's what Beth's family went through too. We may not see the reasons at first, but I truly believe everything happens for a reason. It seems a bit harsh that fate would have one suffer to be a lesson to them or others, but if any good can come out of suffering of any kind it helps balance it out a bit. My family wouldn't be as close if we didn't go through the accident. I wouldn't be the person I am if I didn't go through it. Everything we experience and everything we go through makes us who we are. I've always tried to remember, "If it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger." I don't want to sound like a POLLYANNA but every cloud has its silver lining. Even suffering can sometimes be a blessing.
To me the "children of chance" isn't talking about our lives as children, I think it is referring to humans as the children of God, or the universe. To me chance is something that cannot be controlled by anything we do, and it is simply something God has made happen. I believe that everything happens for a particular reason, just the way God wanted it to happen and that was specifically done so something else would fall into place. Every persons fate is predetermined and you will never know your fate, but with the guidance of God, and all good things in life, you will be able to know your purpose in life and, though you may be acting out of free will, it is what God intended to happen.
I think what it all comes down to is, WE HAVE A CHOICE. We can make decisions for ourselves that may lead us down a positive or a negative path, but either way it is our choice to make. We decide who we are going to be and what we are going to do to become that person. I believe there are certain things in life that we can't control as well. There are certain events in our lives that just HAPPEN, but we have the choice to make the best of those happenings. I tend to view fate as being those events that we can't control and free will being our decision on how to deal with them. God gave us a choice for a reason. He wouldn't have blessed us with free will if he didn't want us to use it and make the most of it.
I kind of wish I had been able to find the time to comment on this before instead of waiting 14 minutes before the deadline. ;-)
I believe there is no such thing as "fate" in the way people believe you don't have a choice and everything is going to happen no matter what. I really like what Amy has said so far because it goes right along with the way I believe your life to be. I believe God is always watching over us and that He knows what is going to happen to us, but we are making our own decisions. It seems kind of contradictory, but it's not my fault that I can't explain an extremely complex idea.
I do believe everything happens for a reason and everything is out there to teach you. Every single little tiny thing can be taken as something for you to learn from. If you didn't learn from it, then someone else probably did without you knowing it. It's kind of like when someone says, "Did you know that everytime there is silence in a room at least one person is thinking about Abraham Lincoln?" I don't know if anyone else has ever heard that little saying or idea or I don't know what to call it. My 6th grade teacher was the one who told our class that. Funny thing is, that wasn't true until he said it. Afterwards, whenever he there was silence you would hear someone say, "Abraham Lincoln." It may seem strange but if you go through your life thinking, "Everything happens for a reason, I can learn from everything." Then I believe you truly will try to learn from things. Even if it seems like there's nothing to learn you'll somehow relate whatever it is that happened to something else and because you told yourself there was something to learn, and because you told yourself, it will really happen. Your mind is able to create something to learn simply because you believed it. Some people have a disease where they think they have a disease, I guess I have the disease where I think I'm learning something.
You have all been most articulate in defining your viewpoints on fate's role in our lives. It seems that the anonymity of the computer allows you to be more open in your discussion - particularly when it comes to personal experience and belief. I really appreciate your participation in this blackboard. You've displayed intellectual strength as well as strength of character.
This discussion is now closed. Grades are posted. Thanks!!!
Blackboard Topic - Week of 12 January:
In the viewpoint question on page 18 of your text, literary historian David Daiches suggests that there is an underlying "ideal of nobility" in the tale of Beowulf as well as in much other ancient literature. What, exactly, is this "ideal of nobility?" How can we define it?
What about the literature (including film) of our own time? Do you see an underlying ideal of nobility in the works we produce, or is it necessary to view an era from afar in order to detect the kind of nobility we see in a figure like Beowulf?
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